Comments on: Cracking the Postcode

By: Stu Mitchell

Stu Mitchell — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:27:58 +0000

There isn’t distinct correlation between OAs and postcodes, or at least, the lookup isn’t 1-1. But I’d say wider than that, the opening up of postcodes should really be geared around, what do you want to use them for? Do you want to use Postcodes as a point Unit (WC1A 4WW) to define a particular location? Or Postcode Sectors as a polygon? The latter are produced by Geoplan. You may want to use their data for marketing purposes. How you convert either into an open source model may need some thought, but first of all you need to understand why you’re doing it.

By: Anthony Cartmell

Anthony Cartmell — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:40:44 +0000

@Matthew Somerville – You can’t publish the OA geographical data, as this is also covered by OS “derived data” licensing rules, as clearly specified on the data CD* (it’s not so easy to find on the ONS website at the moment). You may only use the geographical data for internal business use, and only where the data doesn’t form a significant part of any resulting product. I’m pretty sure that this means that using Census data to geocode postcodes for public consumption would break the OS licence agreement that all users of Census data have to agree to.

*On my CD “OA boundaries for England and Wales in MID/MIF and Shapefile format”, the licence in question is found in a file called OS_OA_licence.doc in the root directory of the CD.

By: Peter Miller

Peter Miller — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:40:40 +0000

I am curious how we reconcile the messages from the different bits of the same organisation about the boundary data (note that ‘www.ons.gov.uk’ and ‘www.statistics.gov.uk’ both appear to be for the same organisation which is the ‘Office for National Statistics’.

This one, that Chris pointed to that makes us happy:-
http://www.ons.gov.uk/about-statistics/geography/products/boundaries/index.html

And this one which CountCulture highlighted makes us unhappy:-
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/terms_and_conditions.asp

To be clear, we are not wanting to use the census data which the 2nd one refers to in part, we only want to use the OA boundaries and the post codes relations associated with them. However… the 2nd link does make it clear that the boundaries are covered in some parts by OS (c) in contradiction to the other one.

I will be interested to see how this pans out and too see if there is enough ‘wriggle room’ to get something online as Chris suggests.

By: CountCulture

CountCulture — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:07:19 +0000

Coincidentally I’ve been looking at this info myself (and also having a conversation with ONS about it), and I’m not sure this is a solution. On the CD with this info on (see also http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/terms_and_conditions.asp), it states that some of explains that OA boundaries are part-owned by OS and as such there are some restrictions on use. (i.e. usual OS-license contamination).

There seems no way of working out which boundaries are OS-contaminated, so I couldn’t see how this was a solution (though would be delighted to be proved wrong).

By: Matthew Somerville

Matthew Somerville — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:22:06 +0000

PaulG: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/geography/census_geog.asp#oa has the details about Output Areas – basically, OAs are groups of postcodes, and are split along ward boundaries. The OA->higher ward data will include wards, but they will be statistical wards (e.g. some tiny ones merged to protect confidentiality and so on).

Anthony Cartmell – you certainly can republish click-use licenced data on the internet (I quote “publishing the Material in any medium. This includes featuring the Material on websites which can be accessed via the internet or via an internal electronic network or on an Intranet”). You can (following section) allow end users to download it for personal use, and ask them to get their own licence for further (that’s exactly what we do for e.g. the TheyWorkForYou API).

I can’t see any issue with using the ONS data in this way, caveats about age of data notwithstanding.

By: Shane McCracken

Shane McCracken — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:18:03 +0000

It’s a useful solution but in the countryside Output areas are not so small. An output area can stretch across 4 miles or more.

It would be better if Postcomm could ensure that the Royal Mail stuck to the Legislation and charged only a reasonable cost to protect it’s IP. There doesn’t seem to be any mention of using it as a commercial asset.

By: Anthony Cartmell

Anthony Cartmell — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:58:09 +0000

Yes, you can use ONS data free of charge, for internal business use. But you can’t publish this data on the internet, nor give it to anyone else (all users have to apply for a Click-Use licence).

The main problem is that the postcode data is very out-of-date, so won’t contain new postcodes. You could probably guess their locations for most purposes, though.

Anyone making this generally available to the public, like Ernest Marples, should probably expect to hear from Royal Mail, or Ordnance Survey, or both.

“Free as in beer” is not the same as “free as in speech”, sadly.

Hopefully the UK will eventually decide to follow the USA, and make postcode and basic map data truly free for anyone to use. If they don’t then OS will soon start losing serious business to OpenStreetMap and the companies that are building their businesses around it.

By: martinrstone

martinrstone — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:41:48 +0000

You still need to be careful. The Postcode to Output Area lookup table is way out of date. The All Fields Postcode Directory (which I presume you refer to) is now superceded by the National Statistics Postcode Directory (NSPD)http://bit.ly/3wBHGD which is a GridLink product that requires a licence to use.
“Users should be aware that both Ordnance Survey and Royal Mail royalties now apply when using the NSPD”

By: Tim Waters

Tim Waters — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:40:14 +0000

Could you confirm the nature of free.
Free of charge is not the same as free of copyright.

There is crown copyright on the boundaries. No Ordnance Survey copyright, but Crown copyright nonetheless. One would also assume that any derivative databases would also be under the same copyright?

By: Terence Eden

Terence Eden — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:27:51 +0000

There’s a rather large problem there…
“The ONS also make available postcode to Output Area lookup files, correct as of 2004.”
That’s nearly 6 years out of date. While old postcodes haven’t disappeared – lots of new ones have been created. My new office in W2 opened in January – there are still GPS receivers and mapping tools which can’t find its correct location.

What you’ve got is a very clever hack around the situation, but it fails for anyone living or working in an area built in the last 6 years.

Postcodes need to be free. We own the Royal Mail – we would get more value from having a free, regularly updated, canonical geo-spatial reference system for the UK than we would from selling the PAF.